I will listen to onething and one thing only: physical evidence for the existence and operation of mass execution gas chambers. ============================================ Source: http://www.zundelsite.org/english/leuchter/report4/ch8000.html From the Fourth Leuchter Report: <quote 8.032 Proof # 19 is a bit strange. It is an entry taken from a daily work report at a Krema. It is allegedly (by no means clear) for work in a room in Krema IV and made by a foreman for Riedel Company, a contractor. He says he tamped the ground and concreted the floor in the gas chamber: betonieren in der Gaskammer . This entry # 5 on said work report is from file BW 30/28, page 28 (pg. #446) at the Auschwitz archives. (Illustration 4) 8.033 In the absence of other documentation it means nothing and will remain an enigma. It, however, may be a joke. This foreman and his crew had been working here for a number of days and perhaps he or someone in his crew was flatulent during that period. I'm sure these people were no different than most construction workers and he may have put this in the daily report as a joke. If he only knew that Pressac, some fifty years later, would try to hang his execution gas chamber theories on his words. 8.034 This is Proof # 19 and falls in to this category. I do not believe it merits any further comment. 8.035 All of these Alleged Criminal Traces are either not properly translated or not properly interpreted. Not one of these Alleged Criminal Traces is capable of supporting any Gas Chamber theory. In short, these are not proof of anything. <quote Regards, Eugene Holman

==================================================== Phillips Murder is a deliberate act. Now tell me the camp in Germany (Germany, not Poland) where tens of thousands of people were deliberately murdered. ========================================================= I hate to be pedantic, but Auschwitz was on territory, the Warthegau, which had been incorporated into the German Reich in September, 1939. The same holds true for three other camps with gas chambers, Stutthof, outside Danzig, Mauthausen, near Linz, and Hartheim Castle. All of these were within the borders of the Reich (=Metropolitan Germany) as constituted between 1938 and 1945. That being said, the best and must uncontroverisal example, of a place within the older boundaries of Germany where murders, extra-legal executions, systematic gassings, deliberate starvation, pseudo-medical experiments, and a Death March, took place was the Ravensbrück/Uckermark complex about 100 km north of Berlin: Source (the camp's own website): http://www.ravensbrueck.de/english/frauen-kz/index.htm <quote

==================================================== Phillips Murder is a deliberate act. Now tell me the camp in Germany (Germany, not Poland) where tens of thousands of people were deliberately murdered. ========================================================= My previous posting tells about some of the murders at Ravensbrück having taken place within the _frame_work of the post-1941  14 f 13 euthanasia program. Let us consider that claim in greater detail. The distinction between camp and killing center , never  well defined functionally or administratively, became increasingly blurred, particularly within the _frame_work of the post-1941 second euthanasia program, 14 f 13 ( http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/psychiatrists.shtml ). Concentration camp inmates no longer able to work due to physical or mental diability were often sent to killing facilities in metropolitan Germany, Bernburg, Brandenburg, Grafeneck, Hadamar, Hartheim, and Sonnenstein, to be disposed of by gassing, or, more often, by starvation or lethal injections. Here is some information on the administrative _link_s between the T4 and 14f13 euthansia programs and the concentration camp system, all three of which were administratively subordinate to the RSHA in Berlin, which enabled concentration camp inmates to be sent to euthanasia centers to be *murdered*, from one of the standard works on the topic. Source: http://www.remember.org/witness/wit.vic.med.html From:  Lifton, Robert, Jay. *The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide.*. London: Papermac, 1986. <quote Return to Witnesses

=============================================== Phillips His taking the American gas chamber as his model was _base_d on the presumption that HCN gas was lethal to Germans as well as to Americans. (I assume you concur in this) Therefore, that the Auschwitz chamber would have had to have provisions to prevent inadvertent leakage. However, Leuchter's taking the American gas chamber as his model forced him into a mindset that assumed that the only way to deal with HCN involved technology and hard implementations. Leuchter admits that the HCN generated by Zyklon-B would have been lethal to anyone in the surroundings of a room in which it had been used which did not have proper facilities for introducing it, retaining it, and expelling it. He is correct. These considerations are essential attributes of a minimal, ideal gas chamber. Leuchter's fatal error was to assume that these facilities must be of a technical nature. The real Mississippi gas chamber that Leuchter examines so lovingly - we should not forget that part of his income came from convincing gas chamber operators to upgrade their gas chambers - in his third report is a highly technical, state-of-the-art killing machine which must have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to construct. It has double heart monitors, its own plumbing system, several levels of pumps and exhaust fans, an oversized chair with straps for restraining the executees arms and legs, bullet proof marine glass windows, rubber gasketing, a pellet inserter, a pellet chute, an automatic pellet release system, and many other bells and whistles. It takes about half a day to prepare it for an execution, and another two days to run it down and prepare it for the next one. It should be obvious to anyone who has ever read about a fatal gas accident that nothing this elaborate is needed to kill a man using cyanide: if you entice and trap him into a tiled, windowless room, throw in the contents of a tin of Zyklon B, quickly seal the doors with duct tape, turn out the lights, and then go off and have lunch, I can assure you that the man will be dead when you return. Don a gas mask, open the door, ventilate the room with the type of exhaust fan used by professional painters, get rid of the Zyklon-B pellets by hosing them down the drain. Nothing like the overly elaborate technical device described by Leuchter in his third report is needed if your _object_ive is simply to kill the man using cyanide gas. Leuchter mentions several times in his report that without proper sealing, people in the vicintiy will die. Nobody is denying this in principle, even though the occurrence of fatal gas accidents in rooms and buildings lacking such structures indicates that sealing is not as crucial a factor as Leuchter implies, particularly if dealing with concentrations of poison gas just over the lethal limit. Leuchter admits that Zyklon-B was up to the job of generating enough HCN to be lethal, but insists that sealing and ventilation be instrinsic technical attributes of the gas chambers. The fact that Zyklon-B was used by the Germans on an everyday basis to fumigate ordinary rooms, buildings, train cars, etc. demonstrates that they had figured out non-technical, non-architectural methods for dealing with the sealing and ventilation problems. Being trained as a professional user of Zyklon-B means knowing how to check for and guard against inadvertant leakage. This is why the claims of Leuchter et al. that certain structures*could not possibly have been used* as gas chambers are as _base_less as they are ridiculous. Any room or enclosure can be fumigated with Zyklon-B, which means that it is being used as a gas chamber, *provided* that it has been properly designed and/or inspected and sealed by a specialist in the use of Zyklon-B as a fumigant. Sealing and ventilation need not be of a highly technical nature, indeed, the normal use of Zyklon-B was to fumigate normal rooms lacking any particular technical or architectural safety features. It is also worth mentioning that construction traditions and norms in Germany are and have long been far stricter than they are in the United States or Britain. Even within private residences double glazed windows, flanged doors, flush thresholds, sturdily built, solid wood internal doors, and concrete rather than wood are the norms that must be followed and which are robustly checked by several levels of bureaucracy. German rooms and buildings are, as a rule,  less drafty and more solidly built than their American or British counterparts are. So, the problem of inadvertant leakage, would not be quite as central a problem within the sphere of German architectural tradition, as it would outside of it. Leuchter's mistake was to assume that these aspects of the gassing process had to have hard or technical implementations, and that Germans build rooms that are not ventilated by air circulation and natural breathing as Anglo-American rooms typically are, but by other means. His claim that the structures in question *could not possibly have been used in the manner claimed* reveals itself to be a consequence of the cultural baggage that prevented him from seeing that the same problem can be approached and solved from radically different perspectives. Gas chambers utilizing cyanide as their lethal agent need not be hi-tech affairs; the Germans were the world's experts in using cyanide for fumigation purposes in rooms, buildings,  enclosed structures such as ships and train cars - even tents - having no architectural safety features whatsoever.

=============================================== Phillips His taking the American gas chamber as his model was _base_d on the presumption that HCN gas was lethal to Germans as well as to Americans. (I assume you concur in this) Therefore, that the Auschwitz chamber would have had to have provisions to prevent inadvertent leakage. However, Leuchter's taking the American gas chamber as his model forced him into a mindset that assumed that the only way to deal with HCN involved technology and hard implementations. Leuchter admits that the HCN generated by Zyklon-B would have been lethal to anyone in the surroundings of a room in which it had been used which did not have proper facilities for introducing it, retaining it, and expelling it. He is correct. These considerations are essential attributes of a minimal, ideal gas chamber. Leuchter's fatal error was to assume that these facilities must be of a technical nature. The real Mississippi gas chamber that Leuchter examines so lovingly - we should not forget that part of his income came from convincing gas chamber operators to upgrade their gas chambers - in his third report is a highly technical, state-of-the-art killing machine which must have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to construct. It has double heart monitors, its own plumbing system, several levels of pumps and exhaust fans, an oversized chair with straps for restraining the executees arms and legs, bullet proof marine glass windows, rubber gasketing, a pellet inserter, a pellet chute, an automatic pellet release system, and many other bells and whistles. It takes about half a day to prepare it for an execution, and another two days to run it down and prepare it for the next one. It should be obvious to anyone who has ever read about a fatal gas accident that nothing this elaborate is needed to kill a man using cyanide: if you entice and trap him into a tiled, windowless room, throw in the contents of a tin of Zyklon B, quickly seal the doors with duct tape, turn out the lights, and then go off and have lunch, I can assure you that the man will be dead when you return. Don a gas mask, open the door, ventilate the room with the type of exhaust fan used by professional painters, get rid of the Zyklon-B pellets by hosing them down the drain. Nothing like the overly elaborate technical device described by Leuchter in his third report is needed if your _object_ive is simply to kill the man using cyanide gas. Leuchter mentions several times in his report that without proper sealing, people in the vicintiy will die. Nobody is denying this in principle, even though the occurrence of fatal gas accidents in rooms and buildings lacking such structures indicates that sealing is not as crucial a factor as Leuchter implies, particularly if dealing with concentrations of poison gas just over the lethal limit. Leuchter admits that Zyklon-B was up to the job of generating enough HCN to be lethal, but insists that sealing and ventilation be instrinsic technical attributes of the gas chambers. The fact that Zyklon-B was used by the Germans on an everyday basis to fumigate ordinary rooms, buildings, train cars, etc. demonstrates that they had figured out non-technical, non-architectural methods for dealing with the sealing and ventilation problems. Being trained as a professional user of Zyklon-B means knowing how to check for and guard against inadvertant leakage. This is why the claims of Leuchter et al. that certain structures*could not possibly have been used* as gas chambers are as _base_less as they are ridiculous. Any room or enclosure can be fumigated with Zyklon-B, which means that it is being used as a gas chamber, *provided* that it has been properly designed and/or inspected and sealed by a specialist in the use of Zyklon-B as a fumigant. Sealing and ventilation need not be of a highly technical nature, indeed, the normal use of Zyklon-B was to fumigate normal rooms lacking any particular technical or architectural safety features. It is also worth mentioning that construction traditions and norms in Germany are and have long been far stricter than they are in the United States or Britain. Even within private residences double glazed windows, flanged doors, flush thresholds, sturdily built, solid wood internal doors, and concrete rather than wood are the norms that must be followed and which are robustly checked by several levels of bureaucracy. German rooms and buildings are, as a rule,  less drafty and more solidly built than their American or British counterparts are. So, the problem of inadvertant leakage, would not be quite as central a problem within the sphere of German architectural tradition, as it would outside of it. Leuchter's mistake was to assume that these aspects of the gassing process had to have hard or technical implementations, and that Germans build rooms that are ventilated by air circulation and natural breathing as Anglo-American rooms typically are, rather than by other means. His claim that the structures in question *could not possibly have been used in the manner claimed* reveals itself to be a consequence of the cultural baggage that prevented him from seeing that the same problem can be approached and solved from radically different perspectives. Gas chambers utilizing cyanide as their lethal agent need not be hi-tech affairs; the Germans were the world's experts in using cyanide for fumigation purposes in rooms, buildings,  enclosed structures such as ships and train cars - even tents - having no architectural safety features whatsoever.

# I said a concensus; I never said anything about at # overwhelming consensus. It's not a consensus. I have explained to you what a consensus means. # Verbal diahrrea is a Jewish disease. You do not help # yourself by confessing affliction with it. More antisemitism in lieu of a rational reply. ## No. As I had pointed out - numerous times - they made ## patently absurd statements. But keep avoiding this, Dickie. # Tell me their absurd statements. Let's start with a small sample. Leuchter said that the gassing process could not proceed as the SS-men dropping the Zyklon would die when the HCN would rise to them. The gas chamber expert never heard of gas masks. He explained the presence of a work on gas chamber in a Krema report sheet as a joke by the foreman. He didn't even know that delousing requires a far higher concentration than homicidal gassing. Luftl stated that it takes 16 hours for the HCN to evaporate from Zyklon - but this is the time it takes the HCN to kill some kinds of insects; the evaporation time is much shorter. He gave this as a proof as to why the sonderkommando could not enter the gas chambers and remove the corpses - but this was trivially solved by either ventilation or by using gas masks, and it was not much of a problem because the evaporation time is so much shorter than what he claimed. He also asserted that diesel exhaust (as used in Tre_b_link__a) cannot kill people, although the Holtz-Elliot paper I have mentioned here numerous times proves that the exhaust is highly lethal even under normal running conditions, not to mention that the engine can easily be adjusted to release as much CO as a gasoline engine. That's enough for starters. ## The early Nazis who followed Hitler had ## put their lives on the line. The Bin-Laden followers sacrificed ## their lives for a cause they believe in. What the hell does it ## prove? It proves only that some people believe strongly enough ## in evil to make a personal sacrifice. # Please justify your accusation that those four men believed # in evil. In my eyes, people who spit on the graves of millions of innocent victims, and lend their voice to a cause which is a spearhead of racism and neo-Nazism, are evil. Of course, Phillips may have different standards - IIRC, he very strongly argued for killing children of illegal immigrants, for example. And then there was that Thank God for these murders , eh Dickie? [...] ## I mean, really, what are we supposed to think of someone who ## claims that a foreman put a work on gas chamber in a Krema ## document because he was joking? # Please display that statement. Exact quote, please. Ah, for cripe's sake. Look at this very thread. Search for joke . Eugene Holman found it in the fourth Leuchter report , in Zundel's site. Go to http://www.zundelsite.org/english/leuchter/report4/ch8000.html and check out 8.032-8.033. [...] # What was his lie? That he consulted various prisons about gas chambers. [...] ## which I often quote. Or because other ## Germans had falsified documens in order to inflate the number ## of Dresden victims by a factor of ten. Would that be racist, Dickie? ## Would that be irrational, Dickie? Would that be a copeout, Dickie? # I'll be better able to reply if you begin talking sense. I am talking sense, Dickie; it's just that you refuse to face reality. Germans have made absurd statements about the bombing of German cities; I have quoted these quite often ( puddles of melted flesh , people in sealed bunkers being turned into an undulating _layer_s of ash , people in sealed bunkers glowing orange and blue and disintegrating , people being lifted into the air and then being shrunk in a second to the size of a child, etc. Germans have also - as Irving admits on his site - falsified the Dresden death figures and inflated it by a factor of ten. Now, your claim is that because some Jews have allegedly lied in the past, than every Jew, anywhere, anytime, is a liar. I am asking you whether that applies only to Jews, or to others as well? [...] # Now tell me the camp in Germany (Germany, not Poland) where # tens of thousands of people were deliberately murdered. Bergen-Belsen and Mauthausen for starters. [...] # WERE they now. You are teling us that soap was made from the # fat of Nazi victims. Well the IHR Journal has done a pretty # thorough job of demolishing THAT Jewish fable but I don't # expect you'll put much stock in what the IHR says - correct? That's the organization run by Greg Raven, who said that Hitler was a great man , and the best thing that could have happened to Germany , right? The funny little bunch of neo-Nazi liars and kooks - right? We're talking about the same IHR - right? # But then suppose I tell you that Deborah Lipstadt also has # said it's not true. How does that grab you? The RJF soap indeed was not made of human fat. But small scale experiments in manufacturing soap from corpses did take place in the Danzig Anatomical Institute. ##  And now you can deal with the testimonies about ## puddles of melted flesh in Dresden, not to mention the testimony ## about the victims in Darmstadt's bombing being lifted into the ## air and shrunk to the size of a child in one second. # Have you ever been in a firestorm? Do you know what a # firestorm IS? You're suggesting these testimonies are true, Dickie? [...] # Quite possibly by the mere fact of being in the # neighbourhood where Zyklon WAS being used. Oh rubbish. HCN moved all over the camp and entered the *underground* gas chambers? It's lighter than air, remember? # But understand # one thing clearly: You are NOT going to take pathetically # small traces like 1 mg/kg and tell us that this proves # Jews were gassed there. As I said - a hundred times? Two hundred? - the concentrations in the gas chambers are up to 20 times higher than in the Block 11 cellars. [...] # Physical findings. What physical findings were there apart # from HCN traces which I feel I have disposed of. You've disposed of nothing. As for other physical findings I have referred to the Zyklon vents. ## Phillips is welcome to offer an alternative as to where all ## the deportees vanished to. But void speculations don't count. ## As he said, he must restrict himself to agreed-upon facts. # That issue has been dealt with by persons far more competent # than myself to do so. Subscribe to th IHR Journal and the # truth shall make thee free. Bereft of replies, Phillips turns to his Gods in the organization run by Greg Hitler was a great man Raven - no doubt in search for another consensus . ## Now if you're to start ## with the old crap of Hoess being tortured into writing his ## memoirs, please explain how, in these memories, he ridiculed ## the Soviet estimate to the number of victims (4 million) ## and claimed it was far lower (1.3 million). If you claim ## other SS-men were tortured by the British, Soviet, and ## Poles into lying about Auschwitz, please prove your claim. ## The same holds, of course, to the many former SS-men who ## were tried by the Germans long after the war. # Do I have to keep reminding you that Hoess confessed to # Auschwitz deaths in the number of 2.5M - more than twice the # figure you people are presently claiming? In his long and detailed memoirs, he gave a lower figure which is consistent with what historians accept. What about all the other former members of the SS who testified about the mass gassings? Go ahead and claim that they were tortured , and then run away when asked for evidence. You've also ignored the question as to why the Soviets would torture Hoess into ridiculing their estimate of the number of victims and offering an estimate which was one-third of theirs. Care to comment? [...] ## The reason which states that if HCN can easily be ventilated from ## a delousing chamber, then it can also be easily ventilated from ## a homicidal chamber. It's also referred to as common sense , but ## Phillips would not know what I'm talking about. # Well, the gas certainly can be ventilated from any chamber, # but the question is: how long does it take. If the time # required is something that could seriously affect thruput, # then the issue of ventilation ceases to be trivial. Unfortunately for you we have the exact figures for Kremas II/III. The ventilation system had a capacity of 8,000 m^3 per hour. The chambers were 500 m^3. Do the math. -Danny Keren.