First of all, democracy in the modern sense of the word doesn't mean simply the will of majority , But of course i never meant the will of the majority.  Democracy always did and still does mean rule by the people.  Having taken off on the wrong foot, no wonder you go spat! at the hurdle. Are you really this fucking stupid or what? First of all, just what the hell do you think the rule by the people is if not the will of the majority ? You think you can get the rule by the people by having a minority rule ? 40% of the folks vote for A. 35% vote for B. 25% vote for C. A becomes the law. That was a rule/vote by the people but yet it was NOT the will of the majority. A democracy can be done where it takes a majority vote for something to become law OR it can be done where it simply takes a larger vote than all other options. But yes, rule by the people does, often, become the will of the majority since, in most situations, there's only a yes or no vote on any given issue. And even beyond that, democracy does not mean freedom.  Democracy still results in being ruled.  The most vivid image would be for Mr. Duckman to imagine living among a Quaker majority.  No Sunday movies, no racy movies, no evening shopping, no guns, no pornography, no short skirts, no lipstick, no perfume, no swearing, no bikinis, no flirting, no overt Atheism, no secular schools, no freedom of opinion, and no automobiles; Church on Sunday whether he likes it or not, Bible training for his children, and starched collars on his shirts. The will of the majority, right?  Oh, what a paradise! Yes, democracy among the Quakers might be no better than dictatorship among the Muslims. TCross

You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.   - Abbie Hoffman Hoffman was a useless rabble rouser with nothing to add to civilization other than a will to destroy: Abbott Howard Abbie Hoffman (November 30, 1936 - April 12, 1989) was a self-identified Jewish Road Warrior, anarcho-communist, social and political activist in the United States who co-founded the Youth International Party ( Yippies ). Later he became a fugitive from the law, who lived under an alias following a conviction for dealing cocaine. Hoffman was arrested and tried for conspiracy and inciting to riot as a result of his role in protests that led to violent confrontations with police during the 1968 Democratic National Convention, along with Jerry Rubin, David Dellinger, Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis, John Froines, Lee Weiner and Bobby Seale. The group was known collectively as the Chicago Eight ; when Seale's prosecution was separated from the others, they became known as the Chicago Seven.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbie_Hoffman Your kind of hero, I guess. TCross

| | You are conveniently omitting the facts that it is at least | 700 years old, | Yes, it shows up in 1537 and that date is consistent with the | radio carbon dating done by Oxford University, the University of | Arizona, and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. | | has much history, | None before that date. | | and no one knows how it was created. | It was done with red ochre and vermillion tempera paint. | | Where is the tempera paint in this explanation? | |http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~mukluk/miscp2.html#tur | +++++++++++++++ | Make Your Own Shroud of Turin | (notes from The Turin Shroud: Fake? Fact? Photograph? , by Joe | Nickell, Popular Photography,November 1979, Volume 85, Number 5, p. | 97.) | | Wet a piece of cloth (perhaps thin and shroudlike) and | mold it to the contours of 3-dimensional _object_ (statue, body, what- | have-you) and | allow it to dry. | Make a half-and-half mixture of powdered myrrh and aloes (ancient | burial spices; which can be obtained nowadays at stores that sell | herbs or alternative medicines). | Wrap the mixture in a piece of soft cotton and then daub and rub onto | cloth wrapped _object_ until image shows up. | This results in a sepia tone negative image of the _object_ similar to | that on the Shroud of Turin. | +++++++++++++++ | | You fraud busters should stop falling over each other - you look like | Keystone cops. | Geezus could you be any more stupid? You just posted exactly HOW to make a fake shroud. Damn, you don't even see it.  You go on and on about how it's the real deal, then you post a method proving it can be and probably is a fake. Simply swap out the aloe and myrrh with a watered down paint of red ocher and vermilion.  It ain't that hard to figure out. Will you please decide who's side you're on? First, you misunderstand, or I did not make myself clear.  The web page instructions posted above were cited earlier by this same group. Notice the ingredients?  Later, Davie states the shroud was painted with tempura paint. I am pointing out you can't have it both ways.  Either the scientific analysis has proven it is tempura, or it has proven the cloth is colored from embalming spices - one or the other, but not both. If you argue that the cloth is colored from embalming spice with wrapping and rubbing, you get an image far different from the real Shroud, pictured on this web page.http://www.shroud.com/menu.htm Notice the photographic character of the image?  A wrapping and rubbing image would be all spread out like the head and body of a bear skin. On the other hand, if painted freehand, you must imagine a painter who knows photographic quality of images, and is able to paint the exact negative image of the face and body - free hand, without ever seeing a negative photographic image. There are serious problems with both explanations.  But I love it when those boys stomp all over each other and themselves, trying to prove their scientific manhood, or something.  They come off as God's own fools. TCross

Actually, what they DID seem to lack was the understanding that a 3-D face projected onto a 2-D surface causes distortion. If you took a straw and cut it lengthwise and flattened it out, it is a lot wider than it looks when it's in a tube form. Same with the face. If you took the skin off and flattened it (or wrapped a cloth around it and did a rubbing or other type of transfer) then it would be a lot wider than in the shroud image. But that lack of understanding does NOT show it to be real. It just goes to show how it's a fake. Here you shoot off your mouth without ever having seen the Shroud. Look now before you shoot off the other foot.  http://www.shroud.com/menu.htm The shroud is a photographic image - in negative.  And that goes to show that YOU are the fake, not the Shroud. TCross

Dave You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.   - Abbie Hoffman You measure a fool by the fools he idolizes. TCross

| In article <090b2177-3abd-4575-8c1c-4674f5670209 | @k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com, This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it says... | | | | It came from a time when no one knew how to create such a thing.  Even | if they had fraud at heart, it is too good to be a fraud. | What time would that be? | They didn't have cloth? | They didn't have cloth dyes? | | Jeez, let it go. | |                         Jim | | They did not have the painting techniques or the human anatomical | knowledge. | Really?  I's sure Leonardo would be surprised to hear that. Since the shroud dates from the time of Leonardo Da Vinci, they did in deed have painting techniques for the anatomical human form. The fabric in the Shroud dates from approximately 1300 years after Jesus lived.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_turin Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci lived from April 15, 1452 - May 2, 1519.  The art between those two periods is very different. As of 2005, there is no universally accepted carbon dating result for the shroud in the scientific literature.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_turin Note this, ye who would discount the photographic negative image: The image on the shroud is much more clear in black-and-white negative than in its natural sepia color. The striking negative image was first observed on the evening of May 28, 1898 on the reverse photographic plate of amateur photographer Secondo Pia who was unexpectedly allowed to photograph it as part of an exhibition for the Turin Cathedral. According to Pia, he almost dropped and broke the photographic plate from the shock of seeing an image of a face on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_turin The quality of the negative image was first noticed 700 years after it was painted. TCross